Dianic Thoughts
Mar. 1st, 2011 01:54 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
trystinnAs a former Feminist Dianic, I'm sitting here thinking over the Pantheacon Dianic-Lilith situation. Frankly, this seems to be a repetitive cycle of boom and bust. These are my thoughts only, I speak with no presumed authority.
1. If you have any concerns about whether you are appropriate for a ritual where you do not know the presenters, its your responsibility to speak to them ahead of time about your concerns. Showing up and forcing them to deal with it in front of everyone when they are trying to get into proper ritual headspace is really not appropriate. Or good manners, frankly.
2. The Dianic Eldership, as evidenced by the SIGS community, seemed quite divided on the issue of transsexuality. It was impossible to say, at that time, THIS is allowed, THIS is not. Each Dianic Priestess did what she felt was appropriate, as guided by her Goddess. I did the same. Mine said "LET THEM IN!" and hence, I did.
3. When I was holding public Dianic rituals, I worked my ass of trying to get it out there that I accepted anyone who self-identified as a woman or would be able to do so for the span of the ritual. Some folks didn't get the message, to my heart-break. But whenever I found out someone felt left out, I made a very strong point to seek them out and extend my apologies and invite them. This, I believe, is how I met![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
man_of_snows. J, is that your recollection?
4. Personally, I believe in an androgynous Creatrix, what I often call the Powers That Be. From this, the Gods, spirits and Elementals were created. I see this sacred source has the most powerful force of Creation and honor it. Those who are created closer to this source than myself certainly don't need me to tell them whether they are worthy to be in any community.
5. That said, I do believe in women-centered and male-centered sacred spaces, respectively. I am also of the belief that if you are going to hold these rituals, the public venue is likely not the appropriate place for them. If you are going to do so, identifying your group and your intended community for participation seems to be a no-brainer. I would not show up for a Minoan Tradition circle, for example. The wording of the ritual in the guide seems needlessly vague. I have the utmost respect for Ruth Barrett. Ultimately, the duty of a HPs is to secure that the sacred space is safe for all involved. This she did according to her knowledge, experience and intuition. And people were hurt and have opened a dialogue that includes her. I'm very glad to see she's handling herself with the dignity, compassion and thoughtfulness I have come to expect from her.
6. I love women. I love men. And I love everyone in between. I left the Feminist Dianic community because I felt that too many of the people I loved were left out and I missed their presence in circle. I felt that our community had become entirely focused on healing those who identified themselves as victims to the exclusion of everything else. Hence where the man-bashing entered in, which I wanted no part of. In the mathematical equation of my life, both sexes have had their share of misdeeds and misbehavior. I can no more identify Man as the enemy, than Woman.
1. If you have any concerns about whether you are appropriate for a ritual where you do not know the presenters, its your responsibility to speak to them ahead of time about your concerns. Showing up and forcing them to deal with it in front of everyone when they are trying to get into proper ritual headspace is really not appropriate. Or good manners, frankly.
2. The Dianic Eldership, as evidenced by the SIGS community, seemed quite divided on the issue of transsexuality. It was impossible to say, at that time, THIS is allowed, THIS is not. Each Dianic Priestess did what she felt was appropriate, as guided by her Goddess. I did the same. Mine said "LET THEM IN!" and hence, I did.
3. When I was holding public Dianic rituals, I worked my ass of trying to get it out there that I accepted anyone who self-identified as a woman or would be able to do so for the span of the ritual. Some folks didn't get the message, to my heart-break. But whenever I found out someone felt left out, I made a very strong point to seek them out and extend my apologies and invite them. This, I believe, is how I met
man_of_snows. J, is that your recollection?4. Personally, I believe in an androgynous Creatrix, what I often call the Powers That Be. From this, the Gods, spirits and Elementals were created. I see this sacred source has the most powerful force of Creation and honor it. Those who are created closer to this source than myself certainly don't need me to tell them whether they are worthy to be in any community.
5. That said, I do believe in women-centered and male-centered sacred spaces, respectively. I am also of the belief that if you are going to hold these rituals, the public venue is likely not the appropriate place for them. If you are going to do so, identifying your group and your intended community for participation seems to be a no-brainer. I would not show up for a Minoan Tradition circle, for example. The wording of the ritual in the guide seems needlessly vague. I have the utmost respect for Ruth Barrett. Ultimately, the duty of a HPs is to secure that the sacred space is safe for all involved. This she did according to her knowledge, experience and intuition. And people were hurt and have opened a dialogue that includes her. I'm very glad to see she's handling herself with the dignity, compassion and thoughtfulness I have come to expect from her.
6. I love women. I love men. And I love everyone in between. I left the Feminist Dianic community because I felt that too many of the people I loved were left out and I missed their presence in circle. I felt that our community had become entirely focused on healing those who identified themselves as victims to the exclusion of everything else. Hence where the man-bashing entered in, which I wanted no part of. In the mathematical equation of my life, both sexes have had their share of misdeeds and misbehavior. I can no more identify Man as the enemy, than Woman.
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no subject
Date: 2011-03-01 10:22 pm (UTC)Everyone was embarrassed, but everyone was polite, at least as far as we could see. My boyfriend, once told it was women-only space, politely withdrew, and I did too. Only at that point did we understand that it was not a space for us. It was not a thing we would have had concerns about, you know, coming from the limited understanding that we had about Wicca, which was all along the BTW model.
I wasn't at PCon, and I don't know what happened. Maybe the Dianic group was very clear that only women born with the expected set of genitalia were welcome. Maybe the women who were turned away were jerks doing it on purpose to cause a stink and destroy women-only space, as Z.B. said in her response. But maybe they didn't know it was likely that the Dianic group wouldn't welcome them. Maybe they, understanding themselves to be women, thought it would be no big deal, and were surprised to find Big Deal happening. I don't know. Myself, I am for inclusion (as you might guess), and I am sympathetic.
no subject
Date: 2011-03-01 11:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-02 12:25 am (UTC)And honestly, I'm so out of the loop, I have no idea what Amazon Dianic meant to signify, if anything!
no subject
Date: 2011-03-02 12:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-02 02:55 am (UTC)But unfortunately, my interface with the Dianic community was less than optimal. Being a military member was anathema to them. And being ambivalent about my gender was what led to us parting ways. The belief of the group I was interacting with was if you did not have a functional womb, you were not a woman.
I'd just learned that I was a DES daughter. And I felt like I had a 'guy mind' in a 'girl body'. I was OK with that. They were not.
As I've said in other places, I left Christianity behind because they told me that I was not good enough to interact with a male god. And I eventually left Wicca, because it seemed that I wasn't female enough to interact with a female goddess either. To this day, I will not join or promote any faith that places one gender above another. While I do respect single-gender sacred spaces, two-world/two-souled folks like me do not get a look in. In spite of that unfortunate binary mainstream bias, I've come to realize that I truly have the best of both worlds, and celebrate that as a Magus.
no subject
Date: 2011-03-02 03:08 am (UTC)Woymn practitioners who buy all their books from Amazon.com???
(Yes, this entire issue is a huge CF which I am carefully staying out of - especially, since I am a man, which typically means I can have no valid opinion. Which is just as well since, IMHO, you've got two conflicting beliefs which can never be reconciled.)
no subject
Date: 2011-03-02 05:20 am (UTC)Well, I seriously doubt they're amputating their right breasts so that they won't interfere with their archery.
And I don't see them ganging up on powerful male warriors to take them prisoner and carry them of to their trans-Pontine homeland to sire their children, either.
So not the classic Amazons of myth and legend.
Some days I wonder how much blame Mary Renault should have for all of this.
no subject
Date: 2011-03-02 08:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-02 08:45 am (UTC)Mary Renault
Date: 2011-03-02 09:56 am (UTC)Re: Mary Renault
Date: 2011-03-02 10:56 pm (UTC)If my prior comment was in any way offensive, permit me to apologize.
Re: Mary Renault
Date: 2011-03-03 02:53 am (UTC)Re: Mary Renault
Date: 2011-03-03 04:32 am (UTC)